Fun Technical Philosophy -Metaphysics -Identity

[michaellevenson]

Metaphysics is a subject I've had an interest in for many years. It's a complicated subject with lots of sub categories, one of which is Identity. Before I proceed, I must point out that the best reading material is the classical titles,i.e. Metaphysics a study of etc. rather than pseudo populist titles.
THE SHIP OF THESEUS

This is a classic puzzle;
Ancient Greek mariner Theseus has a ship ready for sail. It is made entirely from wooden planks. But it is aging, so Theseus replaces one plank at a time, replacing it with a new plank. The old planks are in a pile in a warehouse..eventually the planks have all been replaced.
Question; is the Renovated' ship still the ship of Theseus? It has none of the original planks, but Theseus throughout the process had a seaworthy vessel , which continually existed. Now suppose Theseus takes the pile of discarded planks in the warehouse and rebuilds the original ship..This is the Reconstructed ship...is this ship also the ship of Theseus? It has the original parts, but now relocated. A puzzle!
Someone properly qualified can explain further, see below.

 

[michaellevenson]

 

[Janine The Barefoot]

Strange as it may sound Michael, I would have to go with answer 5. Both none and all of the above.....

From the second it is launched, Theseus's ship is both his ship and no longer his ship as each and every part of it responds individually with everything the ship interacts with including it's other parts. Some planks will shrink a bit (but not in the same way others do), some may bend (but once again, in their own way) and for a time, some may not change at all. But storms, sun, clouds, rain and interactions with the men on board all serve as an axis of change and with every change of any kind you are traveling far beyond the parameters of the original ship in both construct and design.

It matters not if you replace each plank individually, keep every original plank or do any combination of either. Every object is (and for the purposes of this discussion let's assume that "objects" have both identity/individuality of a sort that's all their own) an individual part of the whole but each object changes in it's own specific way and the fact that each changes and is continually changed by environment and interaction means that in the end, none of them are exactly the same as when they started. But, given that Theseus is still using it and it is "his ship" (labeled for purposes of ownership and specificity) it will also remain "his ship" even though it's possible that that is only true insofar as the label itself makes it so.

I would argue that, at any given point in time, all of the ships and none of the ships are actually "The Ship of Theseus". Between the changes of each individual part (in any given manner) and the changes provided by either replacing or restoring the ship, all of them exist but none of them exist as the original Ship of Theseus including the original itself.

The only constant is change (cheap fallback but one I believe firmly in). Therefore, given that The Ship of Theseus is undergoing constant change by whatever means, I would have to argue that given the circumstances, all of the ships and none of the ships is, or will ever be, "The original" Ship of Theseus. Every action and interaction experienced by any of them takes all of them further and further from what only possibly started as the "original" Ship in the first place. It is the Ship of Theseus only as long as he keeps using it and although it may carry the name forward because it was his ship, it is the name and associations with and to that name that gives it identity..... Because as I view the world, it's perfectly acceptable that it was only the original and one true Ship of Theseus for one moment in time. From that point on, the ship was his (and existed as such) in name only.

Neat question though and it does force one to wonder what the hell we were thinking when we started using the word "original" under so many different circumstances, many of which I now question about the application of!

Thanks Micheal!

And DBs for Metaphysics Dude!

Didn't Olivia Newton John sing a song about "getting Metaphysical" ????? You must know the one... dancing around in tights, etc...

 

[michaellevenson]

Agree that solution 5 is philosophically correct. But surely objects survive more than momentarily, including ourselves!
The atoms are continually being destroyed and created, but qualitatively remain the same properties and thus giving a coherent persisting object.
We also are happy with the concept of taking something apart and then rebuilding it, so ship B would count as the original, but so would A, Theseus if he uses both has two ships, but with different histories.

 

[Janine The Barefoot]

Fair enough. I would imagine that my response was taking a piece of the theory of the multiverse just a weeeee.... bit too far!. But I would also add that as human beings, everything we experience changes us; some in small ways and others in profound and large ones and that even though we go through our lifetimes as only one person that person is never, in point of fact, the "original". I was "Janine" when I came out of my Mother's womb and although I am still technically "Janine" there are more things than I can count (along with many more that I'm probably not even aware of) that keep taking me further and further from the Janines I have been throughout my life. I have been changed by both the things I have learned and experienced and also by the things I'm trying very hard to "unlearn", forget and move on from.

One of the reasons marriages fail is because the people involved change and are changed both by being married and separately on their own. If they don't continually work on rebuilding, connecting, "shoring up" and restoring the marriage (like examples A & B of The Ship of Theseus), The chances become higher and higher that they will reach a point from which there are no pieces left with enough commonality for any of it to ever be The Ship of Theseus again. They are and are not, the people who stood up and said "I do" however long ago and if they have children, those children have changed as much as they have both by experiences of their own and by their parent's inability to maintain and preserve their personal "ship".

But both of those examples are, I would have to admit, probably only true of people who are genuinely conscious of their own selves and capable of examining that "self" as they go though their lives. I have a number of acquaintances who aren't the least bit self-reflective and make the same mistakes over and over seeking familiarity (even if what is familiar is damaging and unhappy) over change because the prospect or the concept of self-examination of any kind is either beyond them or too frightening to comprehend. But I would also argue that they are, aware or not, equally changed and simply don't acknowledge or act on it given that for them, ship A is the only "true" self and that it must be preserved at all costs. Even when disrepair and overuse makes it dangerous to stay with.....

Human beings however, are much more challenging and difficult to quantify then ships are. I live in the Seattle-Metropolitan area where I believe we are second only to Tokyo in boat ownership. Those with the money regularly upgrade to larger and better boats and then rename them to suit whatever their fancy might be. Each boat is their own "Ship of Theseus" even though each is different from the last...... quite and completely different in point of fact. But to the boat owner it is "their own" and oddly enough attaches to their identity both externally and internally even as they themselves change and are changed by the mere act of ownership of that "ship"....

I'm lost, I'm exhausted from serious lack of sleep issues and I have a very long and demanding day ahead of me, most of which will push buttons and pull triggers on things I would rather be left alone.... especially given how tired I am. But what can you do? Stuff's gotta happen and we are only one person after all!!

and I'm just plain beyond too tired for a bunch of DBs....... man, that really sucks.

 

[Doctor Omega]