Review Religion US vs. Europe.

[MIKEPR]

I've watched YT videos about Atheism and there had been a couple I've seen where they say there's hardly any religious people there compared to the USA.

Now I don't expect every country to be like the other but America unlike Europe is one of the world's newer countries and it's not like religion was invented here and since many early settlers in the US were European and obviously things must have been different there at one time.

What happened?

 

[DeJoHnNiE]

In my opinion, they stopped spoonfeeding religion here. For example, in US courts and such, using a bible and having "In God we trust" everywhere is something that doesnt happen here at all.

Also like everything else that is "too american" from my point of view, is all the religion in movies and tv series, like all the phrases: God bless, Thank god, god this and god that, going to church, etc is also something that doesnt happen here as much as it does in the USA.

On top of that, the power that exists from religion in USA, like the famous ones that do tv stuff, again, not something that happens here and none of the above would have any effect on anyone that doesnt believe or is religious.

I am not against it or something, I hope the above makes sense in a way that answers the question. IF anything is unclear, please let me know :)

 

[elanor]

many early settlers in the US were European and obviously things must have been different there at one time.

What happened?

Many religious sects were harrassed in Europe by members of the main religions (example pilgrim fathers). They fled the persecution, took their deep religiousity to America and thrived there. In contrast, in Europe the enlightenment movement furthered the realisation that religion is a human brain emanation. And for instance in France, a strict separation between religion and state has been implemented. Other European countries are less strict, but even there the enlightenment movement tends to drive societies in the direction of atheism.

 

[The Seeker]

Europe seems to have learned from its history. Religion on that continent has been positively barbaric in the past. I wish certain other countries would follow suit (including the U.S.)!

 

[MIKEPR]

In my opinion, they stopped spoonfeeding religion here. For example, in US courts and such, using a bible and having "In God we trust" everywhere is something that doesnt happen here at all.

Also like everything else that is "too american" from my point of view, is all the religion in movies and tv series, like all the phrases: God bless, Thank god, god this and god that, going to church, etc is also something that doesnt happen here as much as it does in the USA.

On top of that, the power that exists from religion in USA, like the famous ones that do tv stuff, again, not something that happens here and none of the above would have any effect on anyone that doesnt believe or is religious.

I am not against it or something, I hope the above makes sense in a way that answers the question. IF anything is unclear, please let me know :)

I highly doubt there's much of anything religious related to TV, movies & music.

TV in the US is so immoral to what it was in its early days.

Though I don't doubt everything else.

 

[chainsaw_metal1]

As an American, I can vouch for religion being spoonfed. I grew up in a christian household, albeit a liberal one. My mom encouraged me to read about all things, and to question and never take anything at face value. Eventually I became an atheist, realizing that not only did belief in a supreme being not make sense to me, but organized religion is a complete mess. Just the fact that there are so many denominations just within the christian church, and often times there are little differences between them except for minuscule ideological differences.

In fact, in my area of the country, I don't talk about my lack of faith too often because of the backlash it can have. If you're not a churchgoer, or at the very least, a believer, you're pretty much a pariah. And with the current political climate, the small-but-vocal fundamentalists have been given a louder voice. Science deniers, people who want to push their religious beliefs onto others, discrimination based upon faith...it's only getting worse here. Honestly, if I could afford to move to Europe, I would.

 

[MIKEPR]

As an American, I can vouch for religion being spoonfed. I grew up in a christian household, albeit a liberal one. My mom encouraged me to read about all things, and to question and never take anything at face value. Eventually I became an atheist, realizing that not only did belief in a supreme being not make sense to me, but organized religion is a complete mess. Just the fact that there are so many denominations just within the christian church, and often times there are little differences between them except for minuscule ideological differences.

In fact, in my area of the country, I don't talk about my lack of faith too often because of the backlash it can have. If you're not a churchgoer, or at the very least, a believer, you're pretty much a pariah. And with the current political climate, the small-but-vocal fundamentalists have been given a louder voice. Science deniers, people who want to push their religious beliefs onto others, discrimination based upon faith...it's only getting worse here. Honestly, if I could afford to move to Europe, I would.

The fact that you would allow that to make you wanna leave the US is just silly.

I don't see myself and an atheist or believer and it's not making me wanna leave.

It's probably more acceptable to be an atheist here compared to 50 60 years ago or more.

 

[chainsaw_metal1]

My wishing to leave isn't based on my lack of faith/belief, but more on the fact that those in charge are looking to take away personal rights based on others' "Religious Liberties", which is a bullshit way of saying "establishing a state religion", which is prohibited by the Constitution. Between that and our leaders denying of science and reason makes me want to live in a place where this isn't happening to such an extent.

 

[ant-mac]

My wishing to leave isn't based on my lack of faith/belief, but more on the fact that those in charge are looking to take away personal rights based on others' "Religious Liberties", which is a bullshit way of saying "establishing a state religion", which is prohibited by the Constitution. Between that and our leaders denying of science and reason makes me want to live in a place where this isn't happening to such an extent.

Well, in Australia, the church and the state are still kept separate from each other - for the most part. However, for some reason, science is not held in as high regard as it once was. And for some reason, some individuals without scientific training or a scientific background are under the impression that their personal feelings and opinions on various scientific subjects are of equal merit to the scientific facts and principles that took exhaustive research by teams of experts to establish in the first place.

Well, I've got news for these people...

They're fucking wrong!

 

[Hux]

The reason religion is so dominant in America is exactly because of separation of church and state. European nations generally sanctioned just one state religion meaning there was only one religion to subvert/undermine/mock/criticise.

Separation of church and state actually allows religiosity to flourish.

Doh!

 

[Alex Vojacek]

The reason religion is so dominant in America is exactly because of separation of church and state. European nations generally sanctioned just one state religion meaning there was only one religion to subvert/undermine/mock/criticise.

Separation of church and state actually allows religiosity to flourish.

Doh!

The whole point of this thread is to discuss about the topic. I do not believe your explanation to be that obvious to everyone.

If something is obvious to you, of course, you are welcome to express your opinion, but you should not asume to be the de-facto truth for everyone else.

It is called "discussions forums" for a reason.

 

[ant-mac]

The reason religion is so dominant in America is exactly because of separation of church and state. European nations generally sanctioned just one state religion meaning there was only one religion to subvert/undermine/mock/criticise.

Australia has a separation of church and state, just like the USA. However, religion has no where near the same popularity or power down under as it does in America. It plays it part in modern Australian society, but it is not an overly large part.

Separation of church and state actually allows religiosity to flourish.

It didn't have that effect in Australia, or in New Zealand either for that matter.

Doh!

What's Homer Simpson got to do with it?

 

[Hux]

The whole point of this thread is to discuss about the topic. I do not believe your explanation to be that obvious to everyone.

If something is obvious to you, of course, you are welcome to express your opinion, but you should not asume to be the de-facto truth for everyone else.

It is called "discussions forums" for a reason.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I gave my opinion on this topic.

Is this the level of Orwellian moderation we can expect here?

Australia has a separation of church and state, just like the USA. However, religion has no where near the same popularity or power down under as it does in America. It plays it part in modern Australian society, but it is not an overly large part.

It didn't have that effect in Australia, or in New Zealand either for that matter.

What's Homer Simpson got to do with it?

Was Australia settled by countless religions attempting to escape persecution?

 

[ant-mac]

Was Australia settled by countless religions attempting to escape persecution?

There were people from all walks of life and all stratums of society who helped to settle Australia - beyond the first Australians who were already here. And amongst the wide variety of settlers were people with strong religious beliefs and views.

Religion has always been present - and in the past it was quite important - but it does not continue to dominate the landscape here in the same way that it does in America.

 

[Alex Vojacek]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I gave my opinion on this topic.

Is this the level of Orwellian moderation we can expect here?

Wow, slow down a bit. Are you calling me an orwellian state now?. I just gave my opinion of your opinion!!. Do you see your post being removed/deleted/edited in some way?, I don't think so, so.. what moderation are you talking about?.

We value opinion above all. Your opinion is as valuable as mine!, take it easy !

 

[ant-mac]

Is this the level of Orwellian moderation we can expect here?

I believe you'll find the Orwellian moderation you speak of on the thread concerning ANIMAL FARM and NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR - if there is such a thread.

By the way, what Orwellian moderation? There have been no such acts of moderation performed against you.

Are you under the mistaken impression that only you have the right to express a personal opinion on this thread? Even administrators and moderators are allowed to have a personal life on this forum and engage in conversations with other members - both privately and publicly.

 

[Hux]

There were people from all walks of life and all stratums of society who helped to settle Australia - beyond the first Australians who were already here. And amongst the wide variety of settlers were people with strong religious beliefs and views.

Religion has always been present - and in the past it was quite important - but it does not continue to dominate the landscape here in the same way that it does in America.

So no.

America was built on religiosity at a time when the European tradition was for the state to recognise one religion and persecute the rest. As such, America defined itself by separating church and state and espousing the individual's freedom to worship as he pleased (that very action allowed religion to prosper in a manner that wasn't applicable in Europe).

That history simply doesn't apply to Australia

Wow, slow down a bit. Are you calling me an orwellian state now?. I just gave my opinion of your opinion!!. Do you see your post being removed/deleted/edited in some way?, I don't think so, so.. what moderation are you talking about?.

We value opinion above all. Your opinion is as valuable as mine!, take it easy !

So then what was the point of your last post? Where did I claim the de-facto truth for everyone else?

 

[ant-mac]

So no.

America was built on religiosity at a time when the European tradition was for the state to recognise one religion and persecute the rest. As such, America defined itself by separating church and state and espousing the individual's freedom to worship as he pleased (that very action allowed religion to prosper in a manner that wasn't applicable in Europe).

That history simply doesn't apply to Australia

Religiosity - both individual and national - was much stronger back in the time when the USA, Australia, New Zealand - and any other country that separated church and state - where founded. However, not every country turned out like the USA, with respect to the role that religion currently plays in them. In fact, I'm not sure if any other country has turned out like that.

In any case, when I responded to your original post, I responded specifically to this comment, which indicates an ongoing action or state in the present...

Separation of church and state actually allows religiosity to flourish.

 

[Alex Vojacek]

So then what was the point of your last post? Where did I claim the de-facto truth for everyone else?

I didn't liked the "doh" at the end of your statement, I did this myself countless times in the past and I know why I did it. It felt like your explanation was the obvious answer. I just stated that I didn't think it was right for me. You overreacted to my comment and stated that I was in some kind of orwellian moderation state.. which is not true because you weren't moderated in any way.

So, you state your opinion and end it like its obvious and then you over react to my opinion, sounds like you don't like to hear ideas differnt than yours and then you think I'm orwellian?.

Its good to have this kind of exchange, it helps to re-evaluate what kind of speech we are having while we express our ideas. I'm still thinking this was just an opinion and as ant-mac has stated... why wont we have the same rights to express our thoughts as you?. Why the rush to label me as an orwellian moderator because I said what I think?

Maybe you shouldn't be so quick on words. This is a discussion and opinions will fly, some you will like, some you will not. That is to be expected. Did I call you a fascist or orwellian just because I didn't liked what you said? or did I said it with respect?.

 

[Alex Vojacek]

Just to get over with this moderation thing I'm going to talk as a moderator now, I will write a separate post about this so its very clear to everyone involved in this forum:

1- we the moderators/admin have the same rights to opinion as any other user.
2- we the moderators/admin have the same obligation to respect one another as any other user.
3- when moderation occurs it should be stated in red for everyone to see.
4- if users dont like our personal opinion, so be it, as long as our opinions are respectful, they are valid.

We are abide by same code of conduct as all our users.

https://www.imdforums.com/threads/imdfs-code-of-conduct-rules.145/

This should clear things up.