Don't harsh on the "old" Japanese movies!

divemaster13

Member: Rank 4
LOL

I'm going to present my case on why you should give some old Japanese movies a chance. Yes, I know they are (mostly) black and white and have no graphic violence or swearing or "extreme" content. I know when you start watching one, you think "grandpa" and other similar and negative thoughts.

But there are some real gems. Basically, because the good ones tap so perfectly into the human condition. I teach Old Testament Bible classes from time to time. People come to my class and figure, gee, how can a bunch of historical stories be interesting? They are interesting because human nature does not change. Murder, rape, revenge, lust for your sister, war, back-stabbing treachery, come-uppance and just desserts--it's all in there. Stories that can just as easily come from the front page of today's newspaper. Only the technology is different.

The great movie directors know that the nature of human shortcomings is timeless--and the best ones know how to deliver that in spades. For some reason, the old-school Japanese directors "got it" better than most. I'll present a few examples below.

Ikiru (1952) -- This very well could be the perfect film. Sure, it's not the most entertaining film, like a Raiders of the Lost Ark or something. But no movie I've ever seen captures the human condition more perfectly than Ikiru. The story on the face of it is rather simple. A government worker finds out he has terminal cancer and realizes he has made nothing out of his life--either in his job or in his family relationships. He goes about trying to correct this in the time he has left. This film has pathos and humor and frustration and, importantly, insights, that most other directors can only dream of. As a government worker myself, I can totally relate to the "you can't fight City Hall" theme that has sucked our protagonist into 30 years of a sleep-walking life, and the efforts he has to make to break free of that in the short time he has left. This is Kurosawa's masterpiece.

Hara-Kiri (1962) -- If you would have told me that a movie that plays out as a guy sitting on a mat telling a story for 2 hours would be captivating cinema, I might not of believed you. But Hara-kiri is captivating cinema. Of course the story he tells plays out on the screen in flashbacks, but the "storytelling" scenes on the mat are no less captivating and interesting than the story being told. Another film that totally "gets it" with regard to human nature. And there is one scene--THAT scene--that once you realize what is about to happen, just horrifies you. There's nothing overtly graphic about the scene, but it's one of the most squeamish things I've ever seen. I'm thinking "oh, no; he's not...oh my god; oh my god" as the scene progresses. Masterful storytelling and direction from Kobayashi. "After all, this thing we call samurai honor is ultimately nothing but a facade."

Floating Weeds (1959) -- Ozu made more than 50 films. Many of them silent. In fact, Floating Weeds is Ozu's own color remake of his earlier black-and-white silent film A Story of Floating Weeds (which is also a very good movie). Ozu is perhaps best known for Good Morning (which I thought was a bit too saccharine for my tastes) and the excellent drama Tokyo Story (which deals with adult children who see their elderly parents as obligations to be endured rather than real people). Floating Weeds explores many aspects of human nature. Infidelity (leading to a kid out of wedlock who doesn't know the truth about his father); jealousy, manipulation, revenge...and true love. Sounds like a soap opera, but there's a reason it's on more than a few "top 10 of all time" critics' lists.

Onibaba (1964) -- Is it a horror movie? Yes and no. What happens has elements of horror, but if you are looking for a "horror" movie, look elsewhere. But if you are looking for a fantastic film that (again) taps into human nature and totally nails it--Onibaba delivers. It has murder, theft, sex (and a lot more nudity than you would think for a 1960's film), jealousy, and revenge. Oh, and a demon-possessed mask. While the above are 5-star movies, this one comes in a little lower. I include it here because I found the depiction of the young lady's sex drive so compelling in the way it is filmed. Certainly, there are other fascinating aspects of the film as well, but the depiction of the girl sneaking out every night, naked, to meet her lover, is done very well. She has to slowly sneak out of the hut, basically on tiptoe, slowly into the surrounding marsh--and then her primal running pell-mell at top speed. I liken it to a roller coaster slowly getting cranked up the incline, slowly, slowly; reaching the top and that moment of weightlessness as you realize you are free from the constraints of gravity, and then that headlong rush into exhilaration. Sexual desire? Shindo gets it.

I could go on. There are so many great (not just "good"; but GREAT) Japanese films of this era. A note on my viewing: I watched all of these on the Criterion DVDs which come with all sorts of background materials and insights and interviews and commentaries and such. In fact, the commentaries are in many ways as interesting as the films themselves and present insights that help the casual viewer (I include myself in this category) gain a deeper appreciation of the film. Criterion has film critics and historians and cinematic experts provide the commentaries (for example, Roger Ebert did the one for Floating Weeds). In fact, I learned something about Japanese culture and society in the first 10 minutes of the commentary to Ikiru that really helped me to appreciate why the visit to the doctor's office played out the way it did. If anyone does decide to watch any of these movies, and you find them even as half as enjoyable as I did, I strongly recommend the Criterion releases for the commentaries and features.
 

ebossert

Member: Rank 3
Yeah, there are tons of really good Japanese classics out there.

It was Ugetsu and Tokyo Story that made me a fan of many Japanese classics. A few of my other favorites are below:

Ghost Story of the Snow Witch (1968)
Seven Samurai (1954)
The Water Magician (1933)
Legend of a Duel to the Death (1963)
Wife, Be Like A Rose! (1935)
Woman in the Dunes (1964)
A Page of Madness (1926)
Kuroneko (1968)
Red Angel (1966)
Fort Graveyard (1965)
I Was Born, But . . . (1932)
Sound of the Mountain (1954)
Emotion (1966)
Gate of Flesh (1964)
Blind Beast (1969)
 

plsletitrain

Member: Rank 5
Uh-oh, I think I just threw myself in a pit of sh*t when I made my remark about the Japanese old (1950s or so) movies. I don't know how to crawl my way out of this. *bites nails*

Anyway, I didn't mean to sound like I demean these old movies. If it came across that way, let this serve as my public apology. These old movies I don't classify as boring, they're just not interesting. And the lack of color adds to that. Sorry, I'm really a shallow viewer. I get entertained by plot twists, heavy plot-driven stories, and color. If there's not much that goes on screen, the movie, for it to retain my attention has to have some redeeming value, such as colorful lights and green sceneries. These old movies tend to lack that. Their plots are very simple, yet protracted. One turn in the plot will eat so many minutes, and by that time, given that I'm an impatient viewer, the movie already lost me. And the lack of color kinda contributes to that. But its not much of a big as an issue as the too-portracted and overdrawn plot.

I did watch a couple of Kurosawa's films out of curiosity. I wasn't able to finish Seven Samurai because I just can't. I did like Ikiru and Harakiri and Ran and Rashomon. I did like the latter four but I really can't with Seven Samurai. I also liked Tokyo Story. But for some reason, I can't go further. I was just not as interested.

I have high regard for people who adore these films. I think you must be really smart to be an expert of these old films.That's why I tried once in my life so I can be like the cool kids but I just can't.

Again, sorry if my remark was a bit foul. Cut me some slack, my posts are as sh*tty as my life lol.
 

clayton-12

Member: Rank 4
I’ve generally found it difficult to connect on a personal level with cinema (from anywhere in the world) from any earlier than the 1970’s, but I would put that down to my own experiences and the amount of exposure and understanding that I have of the styles and conventions of earlier eras. I can see how the benefit of insight from background materials would enhance one’s experience, particularly for someone without the necessary reference points to fully appreciate the films.

A couple of years ago, I participated in some of the yearly polls that were being run on the old CFB at IMDb, and as part of that I watched a heap of films from 1965 and 1965. The overall impression I was left with was that back at that point in time, the most exciting film industries in the world hands-down were in Italy and Japan.

I’ve never seen any of the films you’re championing here. Of the films I did see, the four that really stood out, and that I’d recommend to everyone, were:

The Story of a Prostitute
Irezumi
The Stranger Within a Woman
Red Angel


I wasn't able to finish Seven Samurai because I just can't.
At my junior high, each year a class would be ritualistically sent on a long bus ride and forced to watch Seven Samurai. I'm sure this served as inspiration for Battle Royale.
 

divemaster13

Member: Rank 4
Uh-oh, I think I just threw myself in a pit of sh*t when I made my remark about the Japanese old (1950s or so) movies. I don't know how to crawl my way out of this. *bites nails*

Anyway, I didn't mean to sound like I demean these old movies. If it came across that way, let this serve as my public apology.
Ah, methinks the lady doth protest too much! I just sensed a general opportunity to discuss a few of my favorite films and extol the merits of classic Japanese cinema. Just starting a conversation. Not just for the 4-5 people on this site that might actually read this, but for any lurkers or content searchers or whatever. Maybe perhaps someone, somewhere, will feel encouraged to seek out one of these films (or one suggested by others continuing the conversation), and be enriched by it. Or perhaps they'll hate it.

Speaking as someone whose taste runs very counter to much of the prevailing consensus, I am the last person in the world to tell someone they "should" like this or "are supposed" to love that. We all have our tastes and opinions. But I do very much enjoy getting good movie tips from others here from the "recently seen" threads, or, heck, in the two posts just above this (Red Angel has been added to your Queue...). No one ever needs to apologize for liking or not liking a particular movie or genre, if you've at least givin it a shot.

I'll add a few more films from my "classic Japanese cinema" list in the next day or so.
 

sitenoise

Member: Rank 5
I struggle with more contemporary Japanese cinema to get past the male fantasy dominance. The classics I've glanced at are almost suffocating in it. It's not interesting to me. I did just find a copy of Floating Weeds and will give it a look.
 

sitenoise

Member: Rank 5
I'm half way through Floating Weeds and it's been creepy but not too bad. I've just gotten to the point of seduction. Things are picking up, I hope. For a little clarification about male fantasy dominance: It's not the portrayal of women that bothers me as much as the portrayal of the men, most of whom seem like terrible, stiff actors (I know that's kind of the Japanese way, but in "classic" films it's wrenching). The this is our world premise puts me off: We're ugly and rude but the women still love us. Bullshit. Sono addressed this in the wonderful film, TAG, but the part where he addresses it is the worst part of the movie, by far. The recent film Scoop! is an example of 'classic' man loving grossness.

I'm going to try and give the ones you've singled out a shot. I may have already seen Onibaba. Is that the film that's been made a few (or more) times over the years? I'm actually looking forward to Ikiru, may skip Hari-Kari (tried Human Condition I and punted it).

Another thing that distances me from classic J-films I've looked at, from the 50s especially, is the western influence (eg. on hairstyles). Definitely a "Hey Grandpa" moment. I don't mind black and white films at all, but music is so so so vitally important to me that when I hear any twinky dinky noodling soundtracky soundtrack nonsense in a Japanese film, especially of the western kind, my skin crawls. Floating Weeds has some issues in that area, but I am enjoying the way the director frames his shots of non-human stuff, a lot. His human interaction shots are not so good--it's like you can see the actors remembering their storyboard instructions: "Say this line, turn your head slightly to the left, say this line". Ugh.
 

divemaster13

Member: Rank 4
Re: Western influence: Recall that the U.S. occupation after WWII played a huge role in shaping Japanese society. In fact, films during those years had to pass a U.S. review board. The entire culture changed, in much less than a decade, from imperialism and war to pacifism. The Japanese during that time could not adopt Western styles fast enough. Western suits, music, hairstyles, nightclubs, baseball--you name it. It also permeates Japanese films, except, perhaps for the period pieces.

Re: Ozu's filming style: it is well-known for its uniqueness, but I agree it is jarring. Not so much in his earlier films, but in his later movies he relied on it almost exclusively. Basically he uses a static camera set at floor level and has the actor/actress recite their lines looking directly into the camera. It does take getting used to.

Re: Ikiru: please do give it a shot. The movie has a lot to say and, IMO, says it better than perhaps any other movie I've ever seen.

Re: Onibaba: I'm not sure of any remakes. Its so quintessentially "Japanese" I can't imagine a remake unless they change the entire setting. I don't think you will have to worry about your Japanese men issues too much with this one, as the action and drama revoles almost exclusively around 2 women.

Re Hara-kiri. I strongly urge you not to pass on it. Sure, if you get half-way through and want to bail, that's fair enough. But this is a captivating film. I was glued to the set from about the 20 minute mark through to the end, awed at what I had just seen.
 

sitenoise

Member: Rank 5
Re: Western influence:
I'm aware of what you say there, and it is precisely why I'm turned off by the films I've seen from the period. Just because there's an explanation for it doesn't mean I can ignore it.
Re: Ozu's filming style: it is well-known for its uniqueness, but I agree it is jarring. Not so much in his earlier films, but in his later movies he relied on it almost exclusively. Basically he uses a static camera set at floor level and has the actor/actress recite their lines looking directly into the camera. It does take getting used to.
Gawd, I was just going to post about that. It's most unappealing. It adds to the stiff, can't act, vibe I get.

I'm attempting to procure the rest. I'll report back. I'm glad you made this post, again, with not only some description but a real feel for how the films affect you. I'm all about investigating other people's joy.
 

sitenoise

Member: Rank 5
Re: Onibaba: I'm not sure of any remakes. Its so quintessentially "Japanese" I can't imagine a remake unless they change the entire setting.
I was thinking "remade" by Japanese. Maybe it's Kwaidan I'm thinking of. Some guy returns home and his wife kills him, or he kills her, or something out in the woods.
 

sitenoise

Member: Rank 5
@divemaster13 my friend, we're 0-2 so far but I'm going to keep trying. Floating Weeds doesn't offer much as best I can tell: some jerk gets fake pissed about who's dating his son. Nothing more, no insight into human nature. We observe some jerk having his way and abusing women. How is that interesting? The whole "jealousy, manipulation, revenge...and true love" angle felt mechanical and completely on the surface, it could work in a LEGO movie. The woman who the jerk slaps around still wants to be with him in the man's universe. Terrible acting except for the young girl. She's cute as a button and didn't act like she was wearing a straight jacket. How is the guy who played the son, how is his screen presence not cringe-worthy? I really don't get the appeal. Actually, I liked Mom. She seemed much bigger than the rest of the film's characters.

I have to agree with @plsletitrain on this point:
Their plots are very simple, yet protracted. One turn in the plot will eat so many minutes
There's no going back. Once you've seen something like Sono's Love Exposure how could a film like Floating Weeds engage? Not to say it wasn't an interesting or engaging film in prehistoric times ....

Onibaba - I know I'm a punter, but with so many good contemporary films in my queue I can't give a couple hours to a film where the audio and video are from two different planets.

Sorry I didn't get along with the first two. I'm still optimistic about Ikuru.
 

divemaster13

Member: Rank 4
0 for 2; oh no!

LOL--no need to apologize. We like what we like. You gave it "the ole college try" and I really respect that, as well as your comments and opinions.

For myself, I know if someone (you, perhaps--hint hint), were to start a thread extolling the virtues of Ki-duk Kim, I would read it and perhaps participate. Folks may use the words "innovative" and "provocative" and "unique" and challenging" and whatnot in such a discussion, but no one will ever convince me to like or appreciate Ki-duk Kim. I've seen (1, 2, 3, 4,...5?)...five of his movies and only one I can say I liked. One managed not to offend and disgust me (damning with faint praise here), but the other three literally revolted me. No amount of fan appreciatin or critics' praise will ever get me to like Ki-duk Kim, so I totally understand if a particular director, genre, or time period is not one's cup of tea. Ain't nuttin' wrong wit dat.

If you do have a chance to watch Ikiru, or any of the others I or other commentors have mentioned, I look forward to your comments whether they be good, bad, or indifferent.
 

plsletitrain

Member: Rank 5
....but music is so so so vitally important to me that when I hear any twinky dinky noodling soundtracky soundtrack nonsense in a Japanese film, especially of the western kind, my skin crawls.
I think this is also another vital reason why I can't get into them. I have keen ears for music and for some reason, their music don't appeal to me. They seem out of place, without any emotion as if only placed there just for the sake of having some random sounds that could use for a background music. I think it has something to do with the lack of technology then.
 

divemaster13

Member: Rank 4
That's been at the top of my Netflix queue for over a month. ("Very Long Wait"). I'm very much looking forward to watching this.

I was thinking "remade" by Japanese. Maybe it's Kwaidan I'm thinking of. Some guy returns home and his wife kills him, or he kills her, or something out in the woods.
Yes, that's probably the one you are thinking about; probably the 2007 version. That was a stand-alone movie with the plot you described. The 1964 version was an anthology of four ghost tales. I really liked both (4 stars). As typical for me, it's the original I remember most clearly, although I watched the second version much more recently.

It was Ugetsu and Tokyo Story that made me a fan of many Japanese classics. A few of my other favorites are below:

...
Seven Samurai (1954)
Woman in the Dunes (1964)
I Was Born, But . . . (1932)
...
Of your list, these five are the ones I've seen. Interestingly enough, Seven Samurai, though it may be more famous than just about any other Kurosawa film, is not one of my favorites. I've seen it several times, but rate it 3.5 which is lower for me than many other Kurosawa classics (for example, for his period pieces, I liked Yojimbo, Sanjuro, and Throne of Blood better). The other movies from your list (Ugetsu, Tokyo Story, Woman in the Dunes, and I Was Born, But...) are all 4 star movies for me.
 
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